Hi y'all. Okay, I know this was a discussion on the previous site but I wanted to bring it back. I have read and reread Revelations, trying to understand why the WTS teaches about the 144,000 being the only ones going to heaven. I have compared the NWT version with the NIV version to see if there was a major wording difference - which there isn't. Therefore, I cannot understand their defining of the 144,000 being the ONLY ONES going to heaven.

Revelation 7 speaks about the 144,000 in the first 8 verses. Then it goes on to say in Revelation 7:9-17: After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no man could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb!" And all the angels stood round the throne and round the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying, "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God for ever and ever! Amen." Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, "Who are these, clothed in white robes, and whence have they come?" I said to him, "Sir, you know." And he said to me, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night within his temple; and he who sits upon the throne will shelter them with his presence. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; the sun shall not strike them, nor any scorching heat. For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd, and he will guide them to springs of living water; and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."

Okay, so if only 144,000 are going to heaven, why is it that the Apostle John says he saw "a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb" (NWT)? How do they explain this "great crowd" standing before the throne? Isn't the throne in heaven and not here on earth? It is clear that this crowd that the Apostle John saw was in heaven and in addition to the 144,000!

If we take the 144,000 to be a literal number, then why doesn't the WTS also take what Revelation says about these select few as literal as well? In Revelation 14:3-5, it says "and they sing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who had been redeemed from the earth. It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are chaste; it is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes; these have been redeemed from mankind as first fruits for God and the Lamb, and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are spotless.

Can any of those in the JWs honestly say they are "chaste" and "spotless"? So why do they believe that only JWs can be considered to be of the 144,000. If I recall correctly, most of them are or were married (can't be chaste then!). And, they readily admit to lying as being "okay to do" if done to prove their loyalty to Jehovah and in fulfilling his sacred obligation to engage in spiritual warfare.

Revelation 7:14 says the great multitude is "they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb". I bring that up again because in Revelation 22:14, Jesus says "Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates."

Stupid question but, am I reading Revelations wrong? Or does God feel I'm not as smart as the GB and can't interpret Revelations correctly?

Just a bit of what's been going on in my brain lately.
God bless,
CCGirl

You are very much on track CCGirl.

In the early days of the org, it was taught and beleived that ALL went to heaven. This was the doctrine from the time Charles Russell began, up until well into the term of his 'successor' Joseph Rutherford. For everyone to go to heaven then, the number of the Jehovah's Witnesses coupled with the true and faithful saints of God from the time the Apostles were selected by Jesus, could not then exceed 144,000. In brief, the Watchtower declares that there were no more than 144,000 righteous from all mankind since Jesus day on earth! Absurd! SO... when it became evident that the membership of Watchtower by the mid 1930's was growing (amazingly) and would eventually pass the 144,000 sealed number coupled with the faithful from Jesus day to now, Well... this just could not be according to the teaching of Watchtower at the time. At Watchtower headquarters papers are shuffled brainstorming sessions are held and it is then decided (by men not God) that the class of people referred to at Revelation 7:9-10; and 14-17 must depict a crowd that will remain on earth since the sealed number of 144,000 would be full. The text reading from verse 15 that "they are before the throne of God" was now to be symbolic of living on earth for eternal paradise 'before God symbolically" -yeah, OK.

Ever grabbing at straws, this is just another sad proof of the instability of the Watchtower. I have just finished producing a booklet, "Jesus Never Preached About Paradise On Earth" and a new brochure "The 144,000 -Are They Really The Only Ones Who Go To Heaven?" They are now available plus I will be featuring them at the Witness Now For Jesus convention in Pennsylvania in Ocotber. I am often asked by folks in person and in
e-mail about this very topic.

It makes me snicker at how Watchtower will take the book of Revelation and say this is literal, this isn't, that is.... and so forth. True, there is much symbolism regarding the Harlot and the Wild Beast, but the texts we refered to in chapter 7 clearly promise the destiny of the righteous as eternal life in heaven. These are ones who have accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior -the JW's say the recognize him as the savior, but then it stops there. There are literally millions who need the TRUE Gospel, who are currently be lulled into a false sense of security over Watchtower's 144,000 doctrine and this eternal paradise earth.

In answer to your last question in your post: You are reading Revelations right. In fact it is you who has the advantage over the Governing Body: you have the Holy Spirit to help you decipher the scriptures -they don't.

Blessings CCGirl;

I didn't know that!! I mean, I remember learning that it was believed that there would only be 144,000 because the WTS didn't expect to have so many followers but I didn't realize that it meant they taught that ALL went to heaven based on this belief.

I guess it just surprised me to see that the NWT and the NIV, KJV, etc. basically say the same exact thing in Revelation 7. The NWT cleary says the same thing in verse 9 that the NIV says. But the GB has clearly chosen to interpret what the want the way they want.

CCGirl

The answer the Witnesses usually give for Revelation 7:9 is that the whole earth is before the throne of God.

But they can't explain away Revelation 19:1



The Witnesses don't quote that one very often.

NWT



The other thing to consider is that Russell came along in the late 1800's. by that time the number would have been filled.

The book of Acts mentioned at least 100,000 people saved and that was only the beginning of christian growth. Experts say that there were at least 250,000 Jews in the early church and then you must add the Gentiles.

If the 144,000 is to be taken literally the number would have been filled long before Russell was born.

When you stop to think about it the Witnesses are being very arrogant! If what they teach is correct that means Jesus and the Apostles were not able to find 144,000 believers. Jesus preached 3 1/2 years and the Apostles preached for 70 or 80 years, training church leaders along the way. Yet the Witnesses claim they were able to fill the number in less then 60 years.

Really hard to buy when you think about it.

Just my two cents.

I remember my great-aunt Secord telling me this; that at one time it was beleived they all went to heaven. I am sure this had something to do with them always setting the date for the end. She rememebrs them changing it.

---

Thanks for those additional facts Cal. And yes, the JW's can't get around Revelation 19:1.

One more bit of interesting information. In the October/November 1881 Watchtower Russell stated that the 144,000 was filled as of October 3, 1881.

Which is the right date 1881 or 1935?

The so called remnant does not seem to be shrinking very fast, been at 8 or 9 thousand for some time now hasn't it?. These folks are all in their 80's or 90's but the so called remnant by Watchtower count stays about the same year after year. Strange!

Maybe new light will flash up and there will be a third cut off date soon. "The light gets brighter as the day draws near" you know!

Goodness, for all the research I have done I never found that 1881 cut off date. IF that had of been true it would disqualify a lot more than the 1935 date.

Cal asks "which is right" 1881 0r 1935 -to me neither, since their assumptions about the 144,000 are largel in error and unscriptural anyway.

It wouldn't surprise me for "new light" to bring another 'cut-off' date As fars as I can recall the number of the 'annointed' has been around the 8,000 mark since the time my folks were baptized over thirty years ago... aren't these ones supposed to be dying off?

Sorry about that folks I did not mean to sound like I was really wondering which date is correct as Chris pointed out we all know how wrong they are with this teaching. The question was of course rhetorical and meant to point out how ridiculous their teachings are.

The remark Russell made about the number being full in 1881 is on page 3 of the October 1881 Watchtower. I will look it up and post it on this thread sometime in the next few days.

Like you Chris I’m expecting a new cut off date or some major teaching change on this point any time now. They are going to have to deal with the fact that all of the anointed will be gone in a few years. They have always taught that some of the “remnant” would still be here on earth when Armageddon starts. Time will tell! It is so interesting to watch them back pedal they have become quite adept at it. A very good object lesson in the old adage “Practice makes perfect”.

Watchtower, 10/1/00 had an article entitled "The Hereafter - Where Will It Be?". The article, in an attempt to convince that the 144,000 are the only ones going to heaven, says:



But, when you read the texts quoted, they don't "prove" anything. The Psalm quoted says "He makes winds his messengers, flames of fire his servants". I don't see where that shows that humans won't be going to heaven. In fact, Daniel 7:10 disproves what they are saying: "A stream of fire issued and came forth from before him; a thousand thousands served him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him; the court sat in judgment, and the books were opened". If you multiply 10,000 X 10,000, you don't get 144,000 - you get 100 million!

The article continues to say:



But, if you read ALL of Luke 12, you clearly see that (verse 22) "Then Jesus said to HIS DISCIPLES ... Do not be afraid little flock". It doesn't say that Jesus was talking about the 144,000. He was talking to his 12 disciples. Out of everyone alive at that time, yeah, I'd call 12 a "little flock", wouldn't you?

It gets better, folks. The article then says:



When you look up the quoted bible reference, they left out a very important part of Revelation 21:3 - "With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them." (NWT)

Nowhere have I ever read or heard that God will be living here on earth with mankind! I guess I'm now beginning to see how someone, who has not or does not read the bible, can read that paragraph and believe what the WTS is saying. Sad how they leave out such important details from the most important book ever written.

CCGirl