As you well know the JW's have used early church fathers to try and prove they didn't believe in the Trinity. I mentioned in another thread that I've been reading the writings of the Anti Nicene Fathers. I'm in volume one I'm currently reading Ignatius. The problem is that there are several writings that "say" they were written by him, but everyone knows they weren't. They are still in the book, but before you read them it says that these writings are spurious, meaning not written by him. All evidence points to them being written in the 6th century, pretty much 600 years after Christ. Some where around 2 or 3 hundred years after the Nicene creed, you know, the great aposticy.

The reason I bring this up is because my wife seems to understand that these writings weren't written by him, and the date they seemed to have been written. But yet she has went through these writings and flagged sections that prove this person (who ever it was) believed that the Father is the only true God, and Jesus isn't (granted I'm not all the way finished and might find writing to the contrary). But what I'm getting at is she is basically saying SEE right here is proof, but it isn't, first, it wasn't written by Ignatius, and second this is WAY to late to be proving what the early fathers believed.

I guess I just don't see how she can reason this

They will use anything they can to attempt to prove themselves correct.....more so to reassure their own minds that the WTS is teaching them something truthful.

I'd like to know how anyone could actually get ahold of the early fathers writings.....such lay persons as ourselves would probably never have the opportunity to review such material if it indeed exists to this day.

I showed my wife an Awake quote from a 1969 article that told young persons they'd never grow old in this system and not to attend college because it'd be worthless. All she said was something about everyone believing the end is still pretty close and it's not a bad idea. She totally missed the point of the whole quote...blinded...purely blinded...

Hi Bruce,

I read some of the writings of Hypolatus, I am not sure if I spelled his name right, but he is one of the early church fathers that the Watchtower misquotes in their Trinity brochure. He definitely said things that indicated he believed in the deity of Christ and I saw where the Watchtower totally twisted his words and left sections out and then pieced something he said together with something else he said to make it sound like he was talking about something else.

I did not read the writings of all of the early church, just Hypolatus and one other one I don't remember the name of. I will try to find the pages from the library book of the writings and scan them to you.

It may not be clear what all of the early believers believed about the deity of Christ, but one thing is clear to me, he was worshiped as Lord and some of the early believers clearly stated they believed he is the same substance as the Father. I will try to find my stuff and scan it.

Wendy

Good morning Ken,
I can relate, it's almost like reasoning skills only exist to prove themselves right and not to find the truth which they seem to claim.

Good morning Wendy,
If you happened to save the locations of where you believe the WT cut and pasted from Hypolatus (I think its spelled Hippolytus)? Even though I'm a LONG way from reaching his writings it would be good to know.

Thanks

Bruce,

I think you are right about the name spelling. Wow, I really butchered that name didn't I?

I will look up my stuff and get something to you this week.

Wendy

Hey, it's not like spelling "Dave" you know

Opps, forgot to say "Thank you"

I was about to ask more questions and then I opened this message board. I am so confused and I guess I should get my nose stuck in the "reasoning from the scriptures" book, but time is not on my side. My husband always says, " I can show you 50 verses that says that the Holy trinity is false and non=existent. Jesus is the archangel Michael and it even says in your bible that Lord has been used and that is why people are so confused and think Christ is God." He has the same old crap airing out at home and I have to fight back. I just wanted to read out loud the other weekend the books of Acts and he then asked, "who is God to you?" I answered and then it became a "you don't know what you are talking about" talk and he then used the whole JW speeches with me, like he knocked on my door and I was some person he needed to "educate". I swear it is Satan.... he is trying to shake my faith. I just don't understand. He says that I need to be taught the bible, because one day I just picked it up and read it. What I believe seems to mirror what I read. But they pick stuff from here and there and try to "prove" their reasoning why we are so wrong and misled. they drive me nuts!!!

Hi Bruce,

I found some of my information tonight. If you look in the JW brochure "Should you Believe in the Trinity" on page 7, it says in the middle of the page:

"There is no evidence that any sacred writer even suspected the existence of a [Trinity] within the Godhead." - The Triune God

Then, one of the early church fathers they quote is, as I mentioned, Hippolytus. On the same page, this is what this Trinity brochure says about him:

Hippolytus, who died about 235 C.E., said that God is "the one God, the first and the only One, the Maker and Lord of all," who "had nothing co-eval [of equal age] with him... But he was one, alone by himself; who, willing it, called into being what had no being before," such as the created prehuman Jesus.

Bruce, see how they insert the ellipsis after him... ? There is some interesting information they left out which changes the whole meaning of what he was talking about. Also, see how the Watchtower tacks on at the end "such as the created prehuman Jesus". This is the Watchtower's words, not the words of Hippolytus. But when people are reading this, they put it all together and believe this is what Hippolytus thought. Very sneaky and deceptive.

The reference writing I have page copies of is called Ante-Nicene Fathers, The Writings of the Fathers Down to A.D. 325. It is Volume 5 and it is put out by Hendrickson Publishers, and edited by Alexander Roberts, D.D. & James Donaldson, LL.D.

On page 150 in this book, with the chapter titled, The Refutation of All Heresies, Hippolytus is trying to refute the Greek false belief that God's creation was also divine because some of the Greeks thought it was OK to worship the creation. This is where the Watchtower twisted what Hippolytus was talking about. Below is what Hippolytus really said in the third paragraph down in the left column on page 150:

"The first and only (one God), both Creator and Lord of all, had nothing coeval with himself, not infinite chaos, nor measureless water, nor solid earth, nor dense air, not warm fire, nor refined spirit, nor the azure canopy of the stupendous firmament. But he was One, alone in Himself. By an exercise if His will He created things that are, which antecendently had no existence, except that He willed to make them."

Then in the right column on the same page, he says:

"Greeks, not being aware, glorified, in pompous phraseology, the parts of the creation, while they remained ignorant of the Creator."

On page 151 in the right column, Hippolytus says the following about the Logos (the Son):

"The Logos alone of this God is from God himself; wherefore also the Logos is God, being the substance of God."

On page 227 in first the left column and then the right column, Hippolytus says:

"God, subsisting alone, and having nothing contemporaneous with Himself, determined to create the world. He, while existing alone, yet existed in plurality."

"He begat the Word; and as He bears this Word in Himself, and that, too, as (yet) invisible to the world which is created, He makes Him visible; (and) uttering the voice first, and begetting Him as Light of Light, He set Him forth to the world as it's Lord, (and) His own mind; and whereas He was visible formerly to Himself alone, and invisible to the world which is made, He makes Him visible in order that the world might see Him in His manifestation, and be capable of being saved. And thus there appeared another beside Himself. But when I say another, I do not mean that there are two Gods, but that it is only as light of light, or as water from a fountain, or as a ray from the sun."

On page 228, Hippolytus says:

"And the blessed John, in the testimony of his Gospel, gives us an account of this economy (disposition) and acknowledges this Word as God, when he says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." If then, the Word was with God, and was also God, what follows? Would one say that he speaks of two Gods? I shall not indeed speak of two Gods, but of one; of two Persons however, and of a third economy (disposition), the grace of the Holy Ghost. For the Father indeed is One, but there are two Persons, because there is also the Son; and then there is the third, the Holy Spirit. The Father decrees, the Word executes, and the Son is manifested, through whom the Father is believed on. The economy of harmony is led back to one God; for God is One. It is the Father who commands, and the Son who obeys, and the Holy Spirit who gives understanding: the Father who is above all, and the Son who is through all, and the Holy Spirit who is in all. And we cannot otherwise think of one God but by believing in truth in Father and Son and Holy Spirit."

"For it is through this Trinity that the Father is glorified. For the Father willed, the Son did, the Spirit manifested. The whole scriptures, then, proclaim this truth."

On page 253 in the left column, Hippolytus says of Jesus:

"Thou art the ever-living One, Thou art without beginning, like the Father, and co-eternal with the Spirit. Thou art He who made all things out of nothing."

Sorry, this is a lot of typing, but I wanted you all to see how much the Watchtower twists the words of others and lies. How deceptive that they would put that comment in the middle of their page about how none of the early church fathers believed in the concept of the trinity when Hippolytus talked about it so extensively. They totally mis-represented what Hippolytus believed and basically slander him and lie about him, hoping most JW members will never look up what he really believed.


Bruce, I will try to find your e-mail on the forum information and have my son scan this and I will e-mail the pages to you so you can see it for yourself.

Hope this helps.

God bless,

Wendy