I just heard this weekend that the ELCA has voted to accept openly gay clergy and heterosexual clergy living with their partners as long as they are in "long term committed relationships". It is shocking that another large denomination has so blatantly disregarded God's Word on sexual immorality. Is this part of the great falling away spoken of in Thessalonians? Seems like it. I just don't see how people could stay in a church promoting this and how anyone could listen to a pastor preaching God's word knowing he is living with his girlfriend or boyfriend. How sad that the church has fallen so far, it makes me really sad. I wonder how close we are to Christ's coming.

I feel blessed and thank God to be in a church that just recently spoke out against immorality and that as Christians we need to repent and lead holy lives which we can only do by the power of prayer and the Holy Spirit within us. Otherwise we would be giving in to the flesh and Satan which is what the ELCA denomination just approved.

Wendy

I grew up in an ELCA church and technically still belong to one (although I am looking elsewhere...not because of the sexuality thing). I happened to visit an ELCA church on Sunday and there was a statement in the bulletin by the bishop about the new policy. It went out of its way to say that any ELCA church that feels conscience-bound NOT to accept a homosexual minister has the right to say so. So what they did was open the door to monogamous homosexual ministers, but is not forcing any local church to take them.

The letter also mentioned that the vote was very close. They had exactly two-thirds majority in favor of adopting the policy and exactly one-third against. If even one more person had voted against, the motion would not have carried.

Sometime when I'm feeling better (battling a cold right now) I can post the whole statement (or parts of it) so you can read it and judge for yourselves if my home denomination is "falling away."

For me personally, I don't know whether I can in good conscience remain a member of the ELCA or not since they have adopted a motion clearly contradictory to Scripture. I fervently believe, however, that the homosexual community more than any other group of people DESPERATELY needs the Gospel of Jesus Christ offered to them in a loving, non-judgmental way. The Church has been terrible with that. I know that if God gave me what I deserve for my sins, I would be utterly lost and without hope. I don't think what the ELCA did was morally right, but I do think it sends a message to the many gay Lutherans out there that the church acknowledges their existence, and, active or celibate, they are welcome in the body of Christ.

Jay

Hi Jay,

Thanks for posting. I too feel that gays need to feel welcome in church just like any of the rest of us sinners. Homosexuality is one of many sexual sins in God's eyes. I also would not be able to attend a church if the pastor or elder were actively living in other serious sins, such as adultery or living with his girlfriend, etc. Not because I am judging them but because the bible says elders and church leaders are supposed to be living Godly lives and be above reproach. Obviously they are not sinless as none of us are, but they should not be living in active and unrepentant sin. A pastor or church elder living an active and open gay life is living in unrepentant sin which goes against everything the bible teaches about church pastors or any other Christian. However, church leaders are more accountable because they are supposed to be the shepherds of their flocks and the bible says they will suffer severe judgment for leading their flocks astray. This is my take on it from what I have read in the bible. To me there are some gray areas in the bible about certain subjects but this subject is not gray at all IMHO and is crystal clear. The church should change the sinner, not the sinner change the church.

Take care,

Wendy

Hi all,

This is not an easy subject. As Christians I feel we are fighting two problems, one is the attitude of many folks that Christians are a bunch of "self righteous, holier-than-thou jerks" and the second is the idea of many that "there are no absolute truths" and what each person choses to believe to be true is true for that person. When we as Christians take a stand against homosexuality we immediately become very unpopular.

With that being said I must say that I agree with NowImFree and find your thoughts very insightful.

I think we should welcome gays and not judge them because we are all sinners, but as NowImFree reminded us, leaders are shepherds and are held to a higher standard.

I love this quote and whole heartily agree!

I totally agree with NowIamFree and Cal. When my roommate and I share the gospel with gay people, we focus on the sin (our sinful nature), not the sins as listed in Galatians 5:19-21.

We always focus on the fact that God wants us to know Him and to be with Him, but since we are born sinners, that alone alienate us from God. Only Jesus Christ can reconcil him/her to God if he/she believes and is willing to invite Jesus in his/her heart. All that time, we never mention his/her sexual orientation.

Here is the picture: If we pour out a bucket of liquid over the empty bottles, they will certainly fall down and none of them filled. Sharing God's word is like carefully picking up one bottle at a time and pouring carefully into it (Holy Spirit fills the bottle).

Batty

I like all your comments (thanks everyone). I agree that the ELCA's move was wrong...and that pastors should not be living in unrepentant sin. This just happens to be hard for me because it happened in my home denomination, and I don't know if I should "throw the baby out with the bathwater." My pastor is a morally upright, married person and deeply committed to Jesus Christ, and the ELCA as a denomination does many good things in the world. I don't know if I need to forsake the ELCA if their social statement on Human Sexuality is not directly affecting my local congregation.

Here are some excerpts from the statement that came out the week after the vote was taken at the ELCA convention (it's pretty long so I won't post it all):

"Social statements in the ELCA have no authority as such, but are guides to the thinking of the church on a particular topics. The statement covers many areas of sexuality's place in theology, in the family, and in society at large. Most of the statements in 'Human Sexuality: Gift and Trust' express convictions widely shared by Lutheran Christians.

"The Churchwide Assembly adopted the four Recommendations on Ministry Policies proposed by the Task Force for ELCA Studies on Sexuality. These recommendations provide ways for congregations that choose to do so to recognize, support, and call a pastor or other rostered leader who is in a publicly accountable, lifelong, monogamous, same-gender relationship. However, it is important to note that these recommendations do not force any congregation to call a rostered leader who is in such a relationship. In fact, the recommendations mandate that the church respect the bound conscience of those whose opinions differ from current church practice.

"No candidacy committee or synod would be required to change their conscience-bound belief that homosexual candidates can be rostered only if they are celibate. Congregations, candidacy committees, and synods who choose to call pastors living in a publically accountable, lifelong, monogamous, same-gender relationship, however, would be able to do so.

"For some, these actions of the assembly are good news, long overdue in our church (and grounded in the gospel and Scripture). For others, these actions are a sign that this church has forgotten its pledge to have Scripture as an authority. For still others, there is a concern over where to go from here.

"It has been said many times that our unity is in Christ who died and rose for our salvation, and I urge you most strongly to honor that unity.

"May the Holy Spirit continue to guide us as we move into this new future. Peace and joy, The Rev. H. Gerard Knoche, Bishop."

So, again, since they are not going to force local congregations to call actively homosexual ministers, I don't know whether by conscience I must leave the ELCA.

On a semi-related note, how do you think can the church improve its relationship with the homosexual community without compromising our belief in the truth of God's Word? I have thought a lot a LOT about this topic for a long time but still haven't come up with much of an answer.

Jay

Hi Jay, as for me I believe it to be impossible for the church to improve its relationship with the homosexual community, like the rest of the sinful world it is like trying to mix oil and water together to get a balance. Yes of course we should pray for them along with the rest of the sinful world.

Romans 1:26-27 (KJV) For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

As much as we would love to see these people saved, we should also be careful not to let our emotions run riot in our thinking.

God says what he means about such people and He also says what He means.

I know we may have our different views on this subject,and this is mine; they should never be excepted in any church of God's.

every blessing.
john

I think I should make my comment about welcoming homosexuals a little clearer. When I said we should welcome homosexuals I did not mean that as Christians we should condone their life style. I don't see where they should be treated any differently than an unmarried man and woman living together.

I am just not a fan of "Clean up your act then we will welcome you".

If a person is promoting the homosexual life style to others in the church then it becomes a different matter and in my personal opinion that person should not be welcomed in the church.

I just thought my first comment needed to be clarified a little.

I totally agree with you Cal. I saw one of the ELCA pastor's on a Youtube video who was promoting the vote and she is very much an active Lesbian and she was gloating over the vote. She was so arrogant and boasting about her lifestyle being accepted in the church. There was nothing about how God views it or what the bible says, nothing at all. It was all left to a the vote of men which just happened to come to the number 66.6 which I thought was also very strange. Also, at the time the vote was being taken, a tornado funnel cloud was spotted over the church where the conference was happening. All the conference attendees had to moved to another area of the conference building. Tents and tables outside were thrown around and the church cross was left HANGING COMPLETELY UPSIDE DOWN. No bad weather was predicted that day for Minneapolis, it just came out of the blue. All these things are beyond coincidence in my opinion. I think it was God's warning and him showing a small glimpse of his anger and disapproval.

All I kept thinking was that if I was a member of the ELCA, I would be running out of it right now. You can not please God and the world at the same time and that is what they are trying to do. As the bible says, what part can the light have with darkness?

God bless,

Wendy