Hi. I read the info Witnessing to JW by showing how their teachings are in self-conflict -- example saying in John 1:1 Jesus is "a god."

BUT the PROBLEM as I understand it is the JW will not claim JEsus is "a god" in the sense of Mighty God, but rather, in the sense of "magistrate or lord" etc... like sometimes in the OT you see Elohim used as angel, magistrate or God (if I'm remembering my studies right here.)

Anyone?

So, if you use this tactic, you're out the minute they say NO not an actual god.

Thanks,

Jim

Hi James,

Yes, this is a very difficult subject to start with, since Witnesses are adamant about Jesus not being God. In fact, it is the belief of JW's that Jesus is actually Michael the Archangel. Cal has a great article about John 1:1 on his website, this is the link:

http://www.towerwatch.com/Witnessing/john_1_1.htm

Take a look and see if this helps you. Let me warn you again that this is a tough subject to start with. Witnesses are taught that the Trinity doctrine is evil, that it is satan's way of deceiving mankind, and so even the word Trinity is offensive to them. If you go to the main TowerWatch website there is tons of information under Witnessing to Jehovah's Witnesses. And of course we will answer any questions you have. If the information sounds confusing, don't feel bad: It is!! Unfortunately when you are as indoctrinated as JW's are, you don't dare question or disagree with what comes from the top. Any of us will tell you it takes most Witnesses many years before they can step out in freedom from the cult, but we must never give up. Every seed planted has an opportunity to grow. God bless your hard work in helping those who don't know Christ to come to Him.

Blessings,

Mrs. R

Oh James I am so glad you asked this question... and I'm even more excited about Mrs R. response. Because I am having a ROUGH time accepting the Trinity belief... I pray consistently but I'm afraid that my prayers may not be heard because I still pray to Jehovah and in the name of the son Jesus Christ? Is this correct? Should I be addressing Jesus? I'm just relying that Jehovah or Jesus (the heavenly father) is loving and patient with me.. that he knows my sincere heart...

OK I'm still learning how to work this reply thingy box... my comment is above

Hi folks. The trinity is difficult to comprehend. It took me five years after leaving the Watchtower before I finally could "see". Prayer and lots of it I believe was the major help in this. Jesus wants us to know Him for who He really is and it takes different lengths of time for different people.

Sweetnessymb: He DOES know your sincere heart... this sincerity shows Him how willing and ready you are to believe.

Being ingrained for all those years in Watchtower the Trinity was the last truth I was able to see. Keep praying -it will happen for you.

Blessings;

Hi Jim,

Hope you find this interesting.
JW's claim that Jesus is a Mighty God... but not the Almighty God... but look what the bible says about Jehovah verses Jesus in this.

Isaiah 9:6 (about Jesus)
NIV............"And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace" (by the way.. the NWT has Mighty capitalized)

Isaiah 10:21 (about Jehovah)
NIV...."A remnant will return, a remnant of Jacob will return to
the Mighty God."


Revelation 22:20 clearly states that it is Jesus THAT IS COMING!"
..... and Revelation4:8 says...."
"Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty,
who was, and is, AND IS TO COME."

So.... God Almighty capitalized is speaking of Jesus.

goldmorning (Natalie)

Jim,
Some of these scriptures might help



God is Alpha and Omega Rev. 1:8
Jesus is Alpha and Omega Rev. 22:12-16

God returns to Mt. of Olives Zech 14:4-5
Jesus returns to Mt. of Olives Acts 1:9-12

The gospel of God 2 Cor. 11:7
The gospel of Christ 2 Cor. 10:14

Jehovah is Lord Dt. 6:4, 2 Sam. 7:28, Ps.
18:31, Ps. 118:27, 1 Kings 18:39
Jesus is Lord Phil. 2:11, 1 Cor. 12:3, John 13:13, Jude 4, 1 Cor.
16:23

****God is Savior Isa. 43:3, 10-11, Hos. 13:4****
****Jesus is Savior Luke 2:11, Acts 4:10-12, Titus 1:3-4, 2:13***

God is Creator Gen. 1:1, Ps. 102:25
Jesus is Creator Col. 1:16, Heb. 1:2,10, John 1:3,10

God is worshipped Ex. 20:3-5, Rev. 22:9
Jesus is worshipped Heb. 1:6, John 20:28, Matt. 28:9

God pours out Spirit Joel 2:27-28
Jesus pours out Spirit Acts 2:33

God is Judge Ps. 50:5-6, Rom. 2:5
Jesus is Judge John 5:22, Rev. 2:23, 22:12

God is Shepherd Psalm 23:1
Jesus is Shepherd John 10:14

God knows all Ps. 139:1-4
Jesus knows all John 21:17

God forgives sins Jer. 31:34, Luke 5:21
Jesus forgives sins Matt. 9:2, Mark 2:5-10

God sanctifies us 1 Thess. 5:22
Jesus sanctifies us Eph. 5:25-26

Every knee bows to God Isa. 45:21-23
Every knee bows to Jesus Phil. 2:10-11

goldmorning (Natalie)

The God of the Watchtower is a mean son-of-a-gun. He's forever threatening to kill people that don't go to all his meetings, report enough time in the ministry, etc, etc. He even reminds them that if they do everything he asks, they are still only "probably" going to be saved from his destruction.

He's a real sweetheart.

The God that most Christians worship isn't like that. He's more loving, more understanding, more parent-like. If you think of him as your father rather than your god, things might snap into place a little better. It won't help you "get" the Trinity, but it will help you see how understanding he's likely to be with you until you do.

Take care,

Dave

God listens to prayers that come from sincere hearts. Unlike what we believed in the past, that Jehovah only listens to prayers from Witnesses and only when they say "In the Name of Your Son Jesus Christ", He is listening to all prayers and answers them in His Perfect Timing. One article I read on Cal's website helped me understand the Trinity doctrine and I recommend it to you:

http://www.towerwatch.com/Witnessing/the_trinity.htm

The clincher for me was the explanation of how H2O comes in different forms: liquid (water), gas (steam), and solid (ice). Yet all three are H2O. When I understood that, I felt a great weight lifted off of me because I always felt before that I was missing something. Now I feel complete.

Blessings,

Mrs. R

You know what you guys... you GREAT group of folks... and just so dawg-gone resourceful!!! :-D

I printed out all the above scriptures so I could reference it in the bible. Oh that is another thing... which bible do you all read from, know one better say King James Version... that is tough ha ha The New World Translation had me so spoiled easy to understand... I have a bible that I got from the PX post exchange (military mall) and I don't know the version it is but it contains modern language...

Also and I Cal I hope you don't mind me posting this on here. But I asked a friend of mine about the Trinity belief and what he had to share with me was so intriguing... This guy studied Theology... I had all his credentials but I lost it in my inbox.. but he is pretty legit on his knowledge

Here it is below:
Yetta,

You are SO right!!! The Trinity is indeed beyond our comprehension. I mean, we grow up being taught in kindergarten and grade school that one means one and three means three, and one does not equal three. Not in any number system I know of!!

There have been lots of analogies proposed to help us grasp what this TRI-UNITY (where Trinity comes from) means, but each analogy is limited: it may help us understand one aspect of the Trinity, but it fails to perfectly illustrate every facet of the Trinity. Still, perhaps thinking about some analogies AND their limitations/imperfections can help us begin to see something of what this Triune God is all about.

Some people like the analogy of one man being a father, a son, and a brother or friend. He is one person, but he relates to others in terms of those relationships. While this helps us picture a God who is one Person and relates to others in different ways, it fails to adequately convey how the three are truly separate and one at the same time.

Others like the analogy of what it means to be human: we are composed of a body, a mind, and a soul. We can never divide or lose one of the three and still be truly human, so each is separate yet connected in a vital way. Still, this picture fails to show adequately how God the Son (Jesus) could be separate and obedient to the God the Father, while filled with God the Spirit who empowered Jesus then and now empowers His followers.

Comedian Mike Warnke used to laughingly say the Trinity is like a good homemade cherry pie (as opposed to one of the store-bought ones that have that stiff gel inside). He said you can cut it into three separate slices of pie, which anyone can see and count, yet it’s still one pie and inside the sliced top and bottom crusts, the yummy filling is all one and undivided. I don’t know if that one helps, but I will always remember it fondly. Anyone got some ice cream or Cool Whip?

So yes, faith plays a big part in our acceptance of the doctrine of the Trinity. In the Bible we see God relating to people and the world as God the Father, God the Son, and as God the Spirit, each one fully in the unit/unity we call God, yet each one relating to people in certain roles which do not overlap and seem to exist separately from each other. We "see" Yahweh God the Father and His great salvation in and through the Son of God, the Lord Jesus Christ, then "experience" their reality by faith, through the indwelling presence of His Holy Spirit.

I ran across this quote today and I thought it was enlightening:

I am not sure we could ever really understand how the "persons" and the "essence/unit" are related--especially in GOD! We don't understand these things in HUMANS, much less God. But then again, we probably don't have to.

And, to be QUITE FRANK, I would expect a "God" to be a bit more complex than everything He created! I would expect SOME overlap, perhaps, say in the notion of 'personality' but for me to say that God COULD NOT have three interior Persons would be VERY intellectually presumptuous (especially for a mortal creature of only 5'10"!) To say that a God who could speak a universe into existence HAS TO BE no more complex in His nature that humans are would be GROUNDLESS speculation of the most ludicrous sort!

I guess it’s like I have told my classes in the past: I have a pretty smart cat named Sam. Sam knows a lot already and I can try to teach him more, like don’t scratch the furniture, don’t be mean to the dog. But I will probably never be able to teach Sam any algebra, calculus, or trigonometry. It’s not that those things don’t exist, but that it’s just beyond Sam’s ability to comprehend those things. In the same way, while we can understand lots of things about ourselves and the world in which we live, we will never be able to perfectly understand the one God who reveals Himself in three Persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

I hope this little discussion helps. I know it made me go back and think harder about the Trinity. Now my head hurts a little, so I’m going to do some mindless filing.



Looking forward to your reply,