Last Monday my roommate and I had two Jehovah's Witness women over for Bible discussion. We asked them about the 144,000 (the little flock). One of them said that it started at the Penecost (120 people, then more added til now).

Then that woman went on to say that both men and women are in the 144,000 group. I showed her Rev. 7:4-8 and Rev. 14:4 that they are Jewish male virgins. She said "Not anymore. The light got brighter and it really meant those who had not defiled themselves with the world system."

When I said, "According to the Bible commentaries, ....", She interrupted by saying, "We don't practice philosophy." My roommate was surprised to hear that and told her we don't do philosophy, either.

After an hour, we agreed to meet again next week. She said she will ask someone with more knowledge and will give us more information on this subject.

My questions are: Is saying "We don't practice philosophy" one of the tactics to avoid discussing something they cannot answer? And do the JW use commentaries or do they still use Aid to Bible Understanding?

Batty
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God wants spiritual fruits, not religious nuts.

Hi Batty,

I don't have any answers for your specific points of debate with the JW visitors, but wanted to comment on "We don't practice philosophy."

That statement just sounds odd. It sounds like code for "we are not allowed to think for ourselves." I know that JWs are actively discouraged from using any non-WTS-authorized materials for understanding the Scriptures and doing so can be grounds for organizational discipline.

When I lived with my JW host family in Mexico in 2004-2005, they had a copy of "Reasoning from the Scriptures" and a whole slew of other WTS publications. My host mom studied a JW commentary/devotional type book every morning.

Hopefully someone else knows more to help you with the questions you were debating.

Jay

Hi Jay,

Thank you for sharing your experience. I am still very curious as of why they would hem and haw when they were confronted with evidence with their own eyes. From my experience with that, they never returned.

The LORD says to us in Isaiah 1:18, "Let us reason together...." It is clear that He wants us to think (meditate) His words ourselves. It is so simple. If He didn't want people to think for themselves, He would have not said it. I will use this verse when I see them again if they show any resistance about what the Bible truly says, not what the Watchtower says.

My question again is do JWs use commentaries or they must use Aid to Bible Understanding for their studies?

Batty

Hi Batty,

JW's do not use any literature not published by the Watchtower Society. Commentaries are included in this ban, although the WTS quotes from commentaries at times. Their explanation is that the WTS has already done the studying of these commentaries and other books for them, so all they have to read is WT material and that's enough. They can still use the "Aid to Bible Understanding" book, though I believe they use "Reasoning from the Scriptures" more because it's newer and doesn't have all the "old light" that's still in the Aid book.

Jay, the book your host family was using was probably the Yearbook. It has all the info from the previous year (number of witnesses worldwide, growth, stuff like that. They are very focused on numbers), plus a devotion for each day. Again, they aren't allowed to read or even own a book of devotions, even if all it quotes is Bible verses, that isn't published by the WTS.

Hope that answers your question Batty.

God bless,

Mrs. R

Thank you, Mrs. R. You have answered my questions.

I had another session with her and her husband. We discussed the 144,000 and he said the same thing his wife said. The next thing he did was to quote certain verses that to them, regarding 'defiling themselves with women' really meant that a woman represent the world system. Then he asked me if I believe in the military. I come from a military family and I said of course I do. Then he said if I say I am born again, I should make a choice between Jehovah or our government. I told him that I am a warrior of God according to Ephasians 6:10-18. He surprised me by saying, "Beautifully said!"

During the three hours of discussion, I can see that they are so into the Watchtower's teaching. If I can use this example, this is how I see it.... The WT told the couple the sky is green for so long that when I showed them the verse saying the sky is blue, they will still say "the sky is green" without really reading it.

I feel very bad for them, but I still pray that eventually the LORD will open their eyes to the simple truth. Please join me in praying that the LORD will guide them to the real Word of God.

Again, thanks and God bless you, too!

Batty

They would most likely read the verse and then say, "the verse really means the sky is green, I can't explain it very well but the Watchtower leaders can". You are right, if the Watchtower says the sky is green every Jehovah Witness would say it is green even though they see a blue sky above them and a scripture in the Bible confirming it. They must agree with everything the Watchtower teaches or be disfellowshipped. If they see anything differently than what the Watchtower is teaching, it means they are spiritually immature. They are told to put such matters aside and Jehovah will make it clear to them that the sky is really green in due time.

May the Lord bless you in your efforts.

Thanks, Cal for your answer. I know that with the help from the LORD and with our prayers, the mental barrier of Watchtower's teachings will be torn down for those who want to know the real truth.

Batty

Their comment on philosophy reminded me of Colossians 2:8 "See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy or empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ." I'm sure they might see Trinitarian commentators as human tradition and philosophy.

BTW, a great book to check out is Wayne Grudem's "Systematic Theology." He's got some stuff on the Trinity vs. JW theology, but I listened to him say on an audio that he no longer invites the Witnesses in unless they can discuss how one can be forgiven of one's sins and be saved. Talking about the 144,000 doesn't seem to break any ground, but talking about how to be justified of one's sins would probably be more eternally beneficial to them, or at least get them questioning whether Jehovah would truly save them or not under their own system.