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Former Jehovah’s Witnesses and others creating a warm Christian atmosphere


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PostPosted: Tue 13 Mar, 2007 3:29 pm 
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Hay answer the door the way I do .....

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In your underware !!! They just never seem to come back..Wierd.. :scratch:

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PostPosted: Tue 13 Mar, 2007 4:37 pm 
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HA HA HA! Oh No! HA HA! :rofl3:


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 Post subject: Re: Mincan's Intro
PostPosted: Tue 13 Mar, 2007 8:13 pm 
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Mincan, hi.
I can't possibly know what you are going through. I am so very sorry, though. I am praying for you.

In my past, I have believed a lie and built (or rather tore down) my life on that deception. Many years were devoted to the lies (one false belief led to another and so on). God has graciously allowed me time beyond the deceptions, so I now have some perspective on those years. Anger, foolishness, denial, hurt, So many emotions raged within. There were even times when I had no emotions. I found, I did not know how to interact outside of the lie - I thought the lie was me. That was another lie. Another lie was that if I forgave those involved, then I was okaying their actions. By not forgiving, they still owned me.

God loves people. Jesus died for us people. Romans 8:38-39 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus. This quote is from Paul the Apostle - formerly known as Saul of Taursus. Saul of Taursus believed a lie, too. Saul based his very zealous life on the the lie of legalism and performance. He was great at what he did. The Bible even tells us he stood by and condoned the stoning death of Stephen - martyr for the cause of Christ Jesus (reference Acts 6-7, 22:19-21) - all because of his believing the wrong thing.

Paul spent a few years rather out of radar - not a bad idea for those of us getting acquainted with life. When he returned, he turned the world on its ear. Paul could have shut down like I wanted to do. He could have responded to God's love and gone no further. He, praise God, did not. Paul's years of hunting the followers of the Way were triumphantly interrupted by God's divine intervention on the road to Damascus.

My interruption and yours was planned by our loving Father God. Jeremiah 29:11-14 tells us that the LORD declares, "For I know the plans I have for you, plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. Then you will call upon Me and come and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. You will seek Me and find Me when you seek Me with all your heart. I will be found by you," declares the LORD, "and will bring you back from captivity. I will gather you from all the nations and places where I have banished you," declares the LORD, "and will bring you back to the place from which I carried you into exile." Precious one, God's plans do include us being in exile - just as His chosen people were banished more than once. The promise is the Hope of Glory, Christ Jesus in each of us. This Hope gives us that future of blessedness. The Sovereign LORD of the Universe says He will listen to you. He will be found by you and me when we seek Him with our whole heart. He, Jehovah God, Himself will bring you and me back from captivity. Please look to our Sweet Abba to bring you from captivity.

Joshua 8 and 10, 11 or pretty much the book of Joshua details the strong, faithful, valiant warrior Joshua had to be repeatedly told by God to not be afraid. Why did God tell Josh not to be afraid, do not be terrified, stand firm, be strong and courageous? I think it's because Josh was petrified. He was Moses' right hand man at the tabernacle and he witnessed the Glory of the LORD. But when he was in the batter's box, he needed some encouragement. Don't get me wrong, Josh had huge work and he kicked some serious Biblical behinds; but his Abba-God was there reassuring him.
This helps me know that I am not necessarily out of God's mysterious plan for me when my heart is pounding and I want to run for the hills or wilderness.

2 Peter 3:9 tells us: The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. Please be encouraged for your mother's sake and the rest of your family and friends. The Only Wise God gives us the choice; but He does tell us He wants everyone to come to Him. I am so thankful that my Abba does not wish to waste a drop of His only Son's blood.

I guess, bottom line is be "in courage" because the Author of Our Faith - the God of Courage loves you and nothing, nowhere, no-how will make the Lover of Your Soul stop or diminish loving you. Take time to breathe in the Breath of Heaven for your life - Your Life. And remember, Proverbs 27:23-24 If the LORD delights in a man's way, he makes his steps firm; though he stumble, he will not fall, for the LORD upholds him with his hand. "Though he stumble" means to me that the LORD knows and plans on us stumbling. We do not have to be afraid to make a mistake - God already knows we are not perfect.

Prayers and blessing on ya,
Tami

A man is a slave to whatever has mastered him.


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PostPosted: Wed 14 Mar, 2007 11:17 am 
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Amen Tami, awesome!


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PostPosted: Wed 14 Mar, 2007 11:46 am 
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All I can say is "WOW!!!" Tami, I have to ask, can I save your words? They are truly inspired, yes, when I say that I am saying God must have given you those words. Thank you for writing them, not only should they be encouraging for the person you intended, but they encouraged me as well.

Thank you again

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Bruce

I may not yet be the man I should be or the man, with Christ’s help, I someday will be, but thank God I’m not the man I used to be!! (Martin Luther King Jr. Author)


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PostPosted: Fri 16 Mar, 2007 2:17 pm 
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Oh man, I got a letter from my Mother regarding some but not all of my questions. It's letters like these that make me unsure of everything. She appeals to what I know and who I know and that everything that is happening to me mentally is foretold in the bible, blah blah blah. Can someone please help me logically debunk this letter? I don't know, when I hear these arguments from other JWs it doesn't mean anything to me, but when she says it, it becomes somehow meaningful, and I can't quite place why that is...

-----------------------------------
Dear Brandon:

Just a quick thought before I get into answering these questions, I understand that there are legitimate questions that you have, and so they should be answered. However, through your investigation, you have dug up a lot of things that I will only consider because of my love for you. I feel you have not been loyal to Jehovah by searching out things his organization has repeatedly warned us to avoid, with good reason, if we want to preserve alive our faith. There is nothing wrong with proving to ourselves that this is the truth, but I feel that you are going way off balance with trying to prove that it is not, and for reasons that have more to do with your personal freedoms than with the respecting of Divine Standards and Spiritual Truths. Please corect me if I’m wrong.
As far as I’m concerned, this fellows book about the truth [Crisis of Conscience by Raymond Franz, I told her I was reading it], or should I say what is wrong with the truth. Is bias. It is based on his bad experience and opinion. He had what he feels is a wrong done towards him, and human nature as it is, demands compensation. I have to ask you, with what organization is this man affiliated with now, I think I can assure you it is not with one of the main stream religions, He has already learned with the help of Jehovah’s organization that they are so far off the beaten path that it would be futile. Or has he branched off taking disciples for himself. How large is this organization of his, do we know about it ? Is Jehovah’s Holy spirit directing it? And is there any tangible proof of it’s enlightenments, or the ways that it is benefiting other peoples lives, other than a book or two that only serves to destroy weaker peoples faith?
As for the disfellowshipping , I’m sure you will agree that it is necessary. No one was around in Jesus day to see how the actual procedure was done. But I have confidence that in Jehovah’s due time whatever wrongs have been committed will be made right. Disfellowshipping only occurs when a scriptual principle has been violated and ones attitude is unrepentant. I personally agree with the way things are done, because something as important to me as my reputation in the congregation before Jehovah first and then my brothers and sisters, should be kept to a need to know only bases. And it is a very good thing as you yourself have said when one knows how to keep the confidence of another. I can assure you one would only need to worry about this situation if one cultivated a wrong(inappropriate desire) or (pride, ambition, resentment, jealousy, impatience, rebelliousness or any other imperfect human tendency that conflict with Jehovah’s thinking, not the brother.) and then for the sake of easing his conscience blames it on the way thing are handled. When it’s not really the fault of the brothers but the fault of this person for allowing imperfection to stumble him and drifts away for Jehovah. Does this man declare his error? You know I have to wonder how much of this is due to pride? This man doesn’t sound to me like one who is humble, because if he did, he would have left the matter in Jehovah’s hands. But instead he chose to be disloyal and decided to try to bring down the organization. Sounds like someone else I know. I’m not so blind as to think that the organization is infallible, I know that it is made up of imperfect men, and at times they will make mistakes just as I do, but you know I can see the bigger picture. And that’s why we are always told that we serve Jehovah, not men. Humility and respect for Jehovah’s authority should have caused this man to humbly wait on Jehovah to set matters straight, not take things into his own hands.
In 20 years I have not felt that I was taken advantage of, people where their to offer me nothing but friendship and kindness. Spiritual maturity helps to us see and accept all our brothers flaws, and love helps us to put up with it and see past it. What disadvantages could there possibly be to being on the receiving end of this brotherhood? I’m willing to be alienated from the world that offers nothing to me yet takes and takes.
As for the use of a bible, we can use any bible you like, and when push comes to shove I think you’d agree they all say basically the same thing. I will use the “living bible” I really like that one if you have no objections.
As far as your being annoyed with the translation of things such as “grace” I will just say that in our Webster’s new dictionary here at home I’ve looked up the word grace, among other things it says: “ 4) a sense of what is right and proper; decency b) thoughtfulness towards others .
5) goodwill, favour 6) mercy; clemency( a merciful or lenient act) 11) the unmerited love and favour of God towards mankind” ( hereby the undeserved love) it goes on to relate further how it is best understood, suffice it to say I think the rendering of Undeserved kindness actually explains the meaning of the word “Grace” as the word can take on various meanings such as in a prayer before a meal. So the brothers have narrowed down the meaning of the word within it’s contects
which in my viewpoint is very appropriate.
I don’t get your point concerning Romans 3:21. I don’t argue that God’s gift is free, we know that. Here is how it’s rendered in the living bible vs 27 ; “ then what can we boast about doing, to earn our salvation? Nothing at all. Why? Because our acquittal is not based on our good deeds: it is based on what Christ has done and our faith in Christ and not by the good things that we do.” Now again please take into consideration who Paul was speaking to and about what. He was talking about ones ( Jews) who felt that because they had the law and practised the law they had Gods favour, hence Paul was saying in vs 20: “ Now do you see it? No one can ever be made right in Gods sight by doing what the law commands. For the more we know of God’s laws, the clearer it’s becomes that we aren’t obeying them; his laws serve only to make us see that we are sinners”. So in trying to explain to these ones that it was not according to works of law that they would acquire salvation, but it was necessary to put faith in Jesus and his sacrifice.
We have to take the bible as a whole Brandon there are other scriptures in the bible that help us to see that the first century Christians did a preaching work, one that Jesus did himself,
how else was the good news spread? Likewise today, as in Pauls day we are shown how we should feel about preaching. At Heb 13:15 it says: “With Jesus help we will continually offer our sacrifice of praise to God by telling others of the glory of his name.” As Christians there is no shame in this. Personally I feel that this is what sets the true religion apart from others, I’m sorry that you do not. I feel you are missing a large piece of the puzzle if you don’t understand this reasoning. I’m just sorry you feel the need to trust in the credentials of people you don’t know, over the reasonableness of what you’ve been taught, by people you know. I saw a warning on the news the other day about the “wickapeda” it confirmed that the person who’s posted many of the definitions or statements of fact in more than 50% of the information has been a 20 something year old college or university drop out posing as a person with some kind of credentials. Not to mention that anyone can go in and change anything. So please don’t tell me that most of the information you get from research on the internet is legitimate. I really do feel that you are heading down a road that it may be hard to return from if you don’t get off it now. You are my son and I will always love you, but it will become more and more difficult for me to connect with you or even live with you in the same home if you continue to pursue hate propiganda towards the Watchtower Society. You know the thing that you may have overlooked in all this is motivation.
The society publishes things that are up building to ones faith. When they have made mistakes they are revealed. They don’t slander other religions, God’s own word sets matters straight for them. Presenting bible truth is different than slander. Correcting erroneous thinking is not slander Just like Jehovah allowing wickedness for a time is different than causing it. Oh, but I forgot, now you don’t think you believe in a God, or wether Jesus is God. Oh Brandon, what could have possibly made you doubt this very fundamental truth? Well , you know all the information and arguments that I have to present to you to support my thinking. Because for a time you believed it also.
Isn’t it wonderful what listening to strangers does for us to cause doubt when you spend more time investigating their view points rather than your own. You get to be in the position you are in now. I don’t mean to be cynical with you, but you truly have taken a stand with the “ intellectual”
thinking of the day , do you not remember what Jesus said about that. Matthew 11:5 “ O father, Lord of Heaven and earth, thank you for hiding the truth from those who think themselves so wise, and for revealing it to little children”. So I’ll be straight with you right now Brandon. If you are out there to impress with you intellect, you’d better forget ever knowing the truth. Because Jehovah won’t reveal it to you, he will cause a veil upon your heart ( 2 Corith 3: 12-18)
Bye for now love mom.
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PostPosted: Fri 16 Mar, 2007 2:53 pm 
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Good day Brandon,
The first thing that hits me is her statement about : I feel you have not been loyal to Jehovah by searching out things his organization has repeatedly warned us to avoid, with good reason, if we want to preserve alive our faith. First, why is it ok, and even suggested that anyone that is not a JW searching what their religion teaches, but not their own? What is the harm in trying to find out? The harm is that once you find out that what they claim against other religions is in fact what they do. As you have already found out, the “Organization” lies to prove what they believe is correct. Would God approve of that? I think not. That’s why IMHO following any “Organization” is wrong. I try my best to follow Jesus, what the Bible says. I am a Christian, not a Catholic, Protestant, Lutheran or the like. Again, IMHO they have rules and regulations “Just like the JW’s”, although not as bad as JW’s, still rules and regulations that don’t fit with what the Bible says. One of the biggest I have against JW’s is you believe what we tell you to, no deviation, no question otherwise you are out.
She says that you are after personal freedoms, well that might be true in some way, but for these freedoms to be taken away because some organization claims to be Gods organization but their only proof is “because we say so” well I’m sorry, but that’s not biblical ether. The Bible says you will know by their fruits, and so, what are JW’s fruits? You have seen them make prediction after prediction and failed to come true. I don’t know how much investigation you’ve done on other things, but I can tell you in all honesty that they have out right lied to you, and to anyone they hand out their literature to. Can you honestly say you want to pass out lies to people to get them to become JW’s? Would God want that?
Your mom is talking about Ray Franz like she knows him and what he’s doing, like he has started an organization. As far as I know, he hasn’t, and so what if he has? Still doesn’t change the fact that the JW’s have lied, they have cheated people out of their very lives, she is trying to take your focus off the truth, stick to the truth, show her the lies they have told and then tried to cover them up. There is nothing in the Bible saying that there will be an organization that the Holy Spirit directs, nothing. The Bible says the Holy Spirit will direct “Us”, individuals, not an organization.
Ask her for the tangible proof of it’s enlightenments in her organization, ask her why none of the dates predicted for the end of the world came true. Ask her why there are prayers answered for people that aren’t JW’s. Because I have seen it.
She is just going to her teachings, just stick to the truth, ask her if she has the truth why is it ok to lie, if you want examples brother, I can give them to you, I can show you where they have taken things out of context, out and out lied and on and on. That’s how I know that her “organization” is not Gods organization, and I will just continue to follow the Bible, which makes it pretty clear, follow Jesus, He is the only way to the Father. Ask her to read what they said, they say again and again Jesus is the way, over and over. How many times have you ever heard that in your meetings? Did she ever go to someones door and talk about Jesus being the way the truth and the light? I’ll bet not. Try to remain calm and show her the lies, tell her you can’t follow an organization that claims the truth but falsifies so much stuff to get people to believe what they believe.


another thing since I'm on a roll here, ask her how the JW's reach out to the poor? I've never seen it, they only help their own from what I've seen.

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Agape,

Bruce

I may not yet be the man I should be or the man, with Christ’s help, I someday will be, but thank God I’m not the man I used to be!! (Martin Luther King Jr. Author)


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PostPosted: Fri 16 Mar, 2007 3:15 pm 
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Brandon, they have done so much wrong, but yet she will have a hard time seeing it, like they've added to the Bible, they have added the name Jehovah to the NT when the Bible says specifically that this shouldn't be done. What the JW's are famous for (I know, I get to see it when ever I try and show my wife she is wrong) is they can justify anything. I'm currently reading the Ante Nicene Fathers writings and I can tell you this, they believe in only one God, they say it over and over one God. The Father is God, and the Word (Jesus) is God, not two Gods but one. And just the way the Holy Spirit is talked about sounds like He too is God, but I'm not too far along so-----. Anyway the JW's have said that the early fathers (specifically listed are the two that I have read, Justin Martyr and Irenaeus) didn't know anything of the Trinity, and so far, yes, they don't say that word, but it is CLEAR that they believed Jesus as God and was not an angle. Speaking of that, have your mom read the first chapter of Hebrews and explain how Jesus could be an angel. Dude, I could go on and on, and will if you want, just ask.

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Bruce

I may not yet be the man I should be or the man, with Christ’s help, I someday will be, but thank God I’m not the man I used to be!! (Martin Luther King Jr. Author)


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PostPosted: Fri 16 Mar, 2007 3:23 pm 
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Thanks Bruce, you have some really good arguments in there. It's too bad I already sent my reply to this letter. I wasn't going to, but once I got past the emotional attack she was playing on me trying to make me feel like I've "betrayed" people close to me, then I was able to get my intellect back and make a reply to her sometimes illogical arguments. I will certainly use your arguments in future emails with her! Thanks!

This is my reply to her:
-------------------------------------
I feel you have not been loyal to Jehovah by searching out things his organization has repeatedly warned us to avoid, with good reason, if we want to preserve alive our faith. There is nothing wrong with proving to ourselves that this is the truth, but I feel that you are going way off balance with trying to prove that it is not,

If it turns out to be true, then it's a good thing.

and for reasons that have more to do with your personal freedoms than with the respecting of Divine Standards and Spiritual Truths. Please corect me if I’m wrong.

Yeah, you are wrong, and I keep telling you it has nothing to do with "debauchery".

As far as I’m concerned, this fellows book about the truth, or should I say what is wrong with the truth. Is bias. It is based on his bad experience and opinion. He had what he feels is a wrong done towards him, and human nature as it is, demands compensation. I have to ask you, with what organization is this man affiliated with now, I think I can assure you it is not with one of the main stream religions, He has already learned with the help of Jehovah’s organization that they are so far off the beaten path that it would be futile. Or has he branched off taking disciples for himself. How large is this organization of his, do we know about it ? Is Jehovah’s Holy spirit directing it? And is there any tangible proof of it’s enlightenments, or the ways that it is benefiting other peoples lives, other than a book or two that only serves to destroy weaker peoples faith?

He himself says that the book is not an expose, rather it is a first hand account of his experiences in the Governing Body. He did not have "a bad experience" his conscience simply couldn't allow him to continue hurting people as the Governing Body was doing. But get the book and see for yourself. He uses names and dates for his experiences, and he uses actual transcripts of GB meetings. I told you already he believes that religion only gets in the way of a relationship with God. He is spiritual, not religious, there is a big difference there. Do you realise though what you are doing. Your argument is an ad hominem logical fallacy. Rather than debunk any of his eye-witness accounts or quotes from actual society publications, you are attacking his character instead. That logic is flawed.

Disfellowshipping only occurs when a scriptual principle has been violated and ones attitude is unrepentant.

That's not true. People can be disfellowshipped, and often are, for disagreeing with a doctrine of WT and having a scriptural reason for it too.

I personally agree with the way things are done, because something as important to me as my reputation in the congregation before Jehovah first and then my brothers and sisters, should be kept to a need to know only bases. And it is a very good thing as you yourself have said when one knows how to keep the confidence of another.

How would anyone have a chance to defend their reputation from slander if a lid is put on the whole thing. The WT doesn't want any dialogue between the outside world and the congregation regarding doctrine.

I can assure you one would only need to worry about this situation if one cultivated a wrong(inappropriate desire) or (pride, ambition, resentment, jealousy, impatience, rebelliousness or any other imperfect human tendency that conflict with Jehovah’s thinking, not the brother.) and then for the sake of easing his conscience blames it on the way thing are handled. When it’s not really the fault of the brothers but the fault of this person for allowing imperfection to stumble him and drifts away for Jehovah. Does this man declare his error? You know I have to wonder how much of this is due to pride? This man doesn’t sound to me like one who is humble, because if he did, he would have left the matter in Jehovah’s hands. But instead he chose to be disloyal and decided to try to bring down the organization. Sounds like someone else I know.

What are you talking about? Raymond Franz? He didn't get disfellowshiped for anything he DID or SAID. He could no longer be a part of something that was unethical and false, same as me. I didn't leave because of anything I did wrong or WANT to do wrong, as much as you need to believe that for your piece of mind.

I’m not so blind as to think that the organization is infallible, I know that it is made up of imperfect men, and at times they will make mistakes just as I do, but you know I can see the bigger picture. And that’s why we are always told that we serve Jehovah, not men.

Oh, so your loyalties do not lie with any earthly organisation, only to Jehovah? I don't think that's actually the case. To come to a relationship with Jehovah, one needs the orginisation, this is what is taught. You do serve men, whatever their whims may be. And since they make mistakes but that's okay because they don't call themselves prophets, because let's face it, prophets never got God's message wrong 300 times. They are simply interpreters now. Well that's not too good considering the end is so close, how can God afford to keep transmitting all these mistakes to them?

Humility and respect for Jehovah’s authority should have caused this man to humbly wait on Jehovah to set matters straight, not take things into his own hands.

This man had seen 90 years of the same stuff. The truth is, it's only since 1971 that the Governing Body did any sort of Governing at all. The tail wagging the dog talk only came out in that year and Ray Franz pushed for the Governing Body to actually do what they were telling the Rank and File was true. But in reality an orginisation such as was preached never existed until that moment. But like Orwell said, those who control the past control the present. And since no one cares or does any research into the past of the entrepenuer Russell or the orginisation he founded, the present suffices.

In 20 years I have not felt that I was taken advantage of, people where their to offer me nothing but friendship and kindness. Spiritual maturity helps to us see and accept all our brothers flaws, and love helps us to put up with it and see past it. What disadvantages could there possibly be to being on the receiving end of this brotherhood? I’m willing to be alienated from the world that offers nothing to me yet takes and takes.

You personally have never had a bad experience. But what if you did? Then you would be in the same situation so many of your friends have been in. You can't really speak for those that have had terrible experiences, and they happen all the time. The way you reason reminds me of the way the society protects pedophiles and the like. I've never had a bad experience, so it must not be true. To hide all this other evidence is okay.

You believe the world is any worse than the JWs for taking and taking? They keep people so busy that many JWs suffer depression and utter exhaustion. Mental diseases are 400% more common among JWs and Ex-JWs, why do you think this is. Whatever your problem you are told just go out in service more, attend more meetings, do more, always more, never enough.

As for the use of a bible, we can use any bible you like, and when push comes to shove I think you’d agree they all say basically the same thing.

No, they all don't say the same thing. Not many of them change words around, like insert Jehovah into the New Testament, or change the words "ego eimi" to "I have been" when it's so painfully obvious it means "I am" or that change the translation of John 1:1. Read that verse in your Kingdom Interlinear Translation.

as far as your being annoyed with the translation of things such as "grace" I will just say that in our Webster’s new dictionary here at home I’ve looked up the word grace, among other things it says: " 4) a sense of what is right and proper; decency b) thoughtfulness towards others . 5) goodwill, favour 6) mercy; clemency( a merciful or lenient act) 11) the unmerited love and favour of God towards mankind" ( hereby the undeserved love) it goes on to relate further how it is best understood, suffice it to say I think the rendering of Undeserved kindness actually explains the meaning of the word "Grace" as the word can take on various meanings such as in a prayer before a meal. So the brothers have narrowed down the meaning of the word within it’s contects which in my viewpoint is very appropriate.

What were the first 3 most common meanings? Obviously though we both understand that the 11th meaning is basically what we are talking about.

I don’t get your point concerning Romans 3:21. I don’t argue that God’s gift is free, we know that. Here is how it’s rendered in the living bible vs 27 ; " then what can we boast about doing, to earn our salvation? Nothing at all. Why? Because our acquittal is not based on our good deeds: it is based on what Christ has done and our faith in Christ and not by the good things that we do." Now again please take into consideration who Paul was speaking to and about what. He was talking about ones ( Jews) who felt that because they had the law and practised the law they had Gods favour, hence Paul was saying in vs 20: " Now do you see it? No one can ever be made right in Gods sight by doing what the law commands. For the more we know of God’s laws, the clearer it’s becomes that we aren’t obeying them; his laws serve only to make us see that we are sinners". So in trying to explain to these ones that it was not according to works of law that they would acquire salvation, but it was necessary to put faith in Jesus and his sacrifice.

We agree here, I don't think you are really adding anything here to what I've already said.

We have to take the bible as a whole Brandon there are other scriptures in the bible that help us to see that the first century Christians did a preaching work, one that Jesus did himself, how else was the good news spread? Likewise today, as in Pauls day we are shown how we should feel about preaching. At Heb 13:15 it says: "With Jesus help we will continually offer our sacrifice of praise to God by telling others of the glory of his name." As Christians there is no shame in this. Personally I feel that this is what sets the true religion apart from others, I’m sorry that you do not. I feel you are missing a large piece of the puzzle if you don’t understand this reasoning.

Yes the first century christians did a preaching work. So did the 2nd century, 3rd century, all the way up until today have Christians "spread the gospel." Why do you think all the Pacific Rim, Africa, some countries in the Orient, most of the known world has Christians in it? Who did this great spreading of Christianity? Was it not Christians themselves?

I’m just sorry you feel the need to trust in the credentials of people you don’t know, over the reasonableness of what you’ve been taught, by people you know.

Knowing or not knowing a person doesn't change the fact they can be wrong.

I saw a warning on the news the other day about the "wickapeda" it confirmed that the person who’s posted many of the definitions or statements of fact in more than 50% of the information has been a 20 something year old college or university drop out posing as a person with some kind of credentials. Not to mention that anyone can go in and change anything. So please don’t tell me that most of the information you get from research on the internet is legitimate.

Anyone can edit Wikipedia, anyone that doesn't know this already obviously doesn't know much about the internet. It is a wiki, that means an editable code anyone can edit. I edit articles on wikipedia on things that I know something about. No one smart uses Wikipedia as primary source or the only source. Not even in printed material would one get all their information for any sort of research project.

You know the thing that you may have overlooked in all this is motivation.

You ended the paragraph here and I'm not quite sure what you mean by motivation.

The society publishes things that are up building to ones faith.

Faith in their society. That's circular logic. See "Kissing Hank's Ass" for further details.

When they have made mistakes they are revealed.

Not as mistakes. As "new light", etc.

They don’t slander other religions, God’s own word sets matters straight for them.

See "Mankind's Search for God" published by Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. Or "Kingdom News No.37 - The End of False Religion is Near"

Presenting bible truth is different than slander. Correcting erroneous thinking is not slander Just like Jehovah allowing wickedness for a time is different than causing it.

The bible is a very good example of text open to interpretation. Sometimes the text is in symbolic language, othertimes literal, sometimes hard to tell.

Oh, but I forgot, now you don’t think you believe in a God, or wether Jesus is God. Oh Brandon, what could have possibly made you doubt this very fundamental truth? Well , you know all the information and arguments that I have to present to you to support my thinking. Because for a time you believed it also.

There are arguments to be made for both ways. Have the scriptures I shown you been dismissed this quickly?

Isn’t it wonderful what listening to strangers does for us to cause doubt when you spend more time investigating their view points rather than your own. You get to be in the position you are in now.

This is how one forms their own viewpoint, by listening to the viewpoints of many, not only people you know, and forumlating your own unique viewpoint based on the evidence put out by other people. Anyone who formulates their own viewpoints without considering any outside materials, or ONE material source, is a peewit.

So I’ll be straight with you right now Brandon. If you are out there to impress with you intellect, you’d better forget ever knowing the truth. Because Jehovah won’t reveal it to you, he will cause a veil upon your heart ( 2 Corith 3: 12-18)

I don't go around saying I'm smarter than anyone. And I don't consider myself that overly intellegent. This again is an ad hominem fallacy. You are saying something about me will stop me from learning truth about something. Usually knowledge is learned by research, not your personality.


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PostPosted: Fri 16 Mar, 2007 3:44 pm 
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Good on you mate!! I think you did great, I just pray something gets her to peek out side her box.

My wife asked me once if I thought she was in a cult. long story short I had to tell her yes. She didn't like it, and she argued against the definition I used. I wish I would have had this as a definition at the time posted by friendly_sid:

from the book "Seductive Poison" by Deborah Layton, a Jonestown survivor.

What is a cult?

Looking back, there are a few things I have come to learn. People do not knowingly join “cults” that will ultimately destroy and kill them. People join self-help groups, churches, political movements, college campus dinner socials, and the like, in an effort to be a part of something larger than themselves. It is mostly the innocent and naïve who find themselves entrapped. In their openhearted endeavor to find meaning in their lives, they walk blindly into the promise of ultimate answers and a higher purpose. It is usually only gradually that the group turns into or reveals itself as a cult, becomes malignant, but by then it is often too late.

I hope my book will give my daughter some answers about how I got caught and how the Jonestown tragedy happened. I hope it will provide clues about the workings of a cult and shed light on the darkness of deceit. There are essential warning signs early on. Our alarm signals ought to go off as soon as someone tells us their way is the only right way.

When our own thoughts are forbidden, when our questions are not allowed and our doubts are punished, when contacts and friendships outside of the organization are censored, we are being abused for an end that never justifies its means. When our heart aches knowing we have made friendships and secret attachments that will be forever forbidden if we leave, we are in danger. When we consider staying in a group because we cannot bear the loss, disappointment and sorrow our leaving will cause for ourselves and those we have come to love, we are in a cult.

If there is any lesson to be learned it is that an ideal can never be brought about by fear, abuse, and the threat of retribution. When family and friends are used as a weapon in order to force us to stay in an organization, something has gone terribly wrong. If I, as a young woman, had had someone explain to me what cults are and how indoctrination works, my story might not have been the same.

_________________
Agape,

Bruce

I may not yet be the man I should be or the man, with Christ’s help, I someday will be, but thank God I’m not the man I used to be!! (Martin Luther King Jr. Author)


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